DWarner4

LBJ < MJ... DEBATE THE FACTS HERE!

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carnageta    773

Don't need to, DWarner summed it up perfectly for yah.

 

I was just hoping the thread would stay away from using all the mythology of these packaged opinions we've been hearing about these players for years, much like the one you stated regarding something like Mike being more competitive than any homo sapien ever born and possessing more will to win than a gladiator fighting for his life versus a bear, or some cheap Nike ad-like regurgitation. Like Mark Jackson also says- You're better than that! lol

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Majestic    8,278
22 minutes ago, carnageta said:

Don't need to, DWarner summed it up perfectly for yah.

 

That's what I thought...you can't.

DWarner says things that have nothing to do with what I said and exaggerates wildly.

More competitive than any homo sapien ever born...more will to win than a gladiator fighting for his life versus a bear.

Lmao! That boarders on goofy. I was just talking about Jordan compared to other NBA players. 

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carnageta    773
14 minutes ago, Majestic said:

 

6-0.

 

Against weak competition, like the FACTS prove so.

 

The amount of championships determine the will to win nowadays? So what, if Lebron had more 'will' then Cleveland would have won this year? Ridiculous.

 

Since we're going by championships, Bill Russell has 11, so he must have a stronger will to win than Jordan (there I just named someone else). 

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Majestic    8,278
1 minute ago, carnageta said:

Since we're going by championships, Bill Russell has 11, so he must have a stronger will to win than Jordan (there I just named someone else). 

 

Good for you.

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JustiseForHeat20    1,631

its really laughable the lengths ppl go... the competition wasnt weak, the bulls were just the best team the sport had ever seen because of jordan. Thats why jordan always had to hit some heroic shot in the last few seconds of a game for the bulls to win. The bulls are the greatest team to ever play the game, if competition was weak they would have been rolling over there finals opponents. Guess what, it went 6 games and jordan had to hit one of the most iconic shots for them to win against the jazz. Like i said before, there both great, no need to tear down ones accomplishment down to try and build ones resume up. 

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carnageta    773

Look up the rankings based on metrics for all of Jordan's finals opponents and compare them to that of Lebron's. Then you'll know whose competition was weaker in June.

 

Speaking of tear downs, don't you tear down the greatness of the Warriors squad prior to the arrival of Kevin Durant just to support your own arguments?

 

Lol at Mr. Contradictory considering facts to be laughable.

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DWarner4    724
12 hours ago, JustiseForHeat20 said:

its really laughable the lengths ppl go...

Thats why jordan always had to hit some heroic shot in the last few seconds of a game for the bulls to win.

 

if competition was weak they would have been rolling over there finals opponents. Guess what, it went 6 games and jordan had to hit one of the most iconic shots for them to win against the jazz.

 

Like i said before, there both great, no need to tear down ones accomplishment down to try and build ones resume up. 

 

That's why he always had to hit a heroic last second shot for his team to win? Part of the myth man... 

 

This is an old article so LeBron may have even hit more more since...But it sheds some light on the Jordan mythology...

 

 

For better or worse, LeBron James is often compared to NBA legend Michael Jordan.

Sunday, he evened Jordan when it comes to one playoff feat.

James’ buzzer-beating, game-winning shot pushed the Cleveland Cavaliers past the Chicago Bulls and evened their series at 2. It was the third time James has won a playoff game for his team with a buzzer beater, as many times as Jordan did the same in his career.

.@KingJames has tied Michael Jordan with 3 career playoff buzzer-beaters

At age 30, James his plenty of time still to pass Jordan in that category.

Here’s another interesting comparison of the two greats’ late-game performances.

LeBron James has taken 10 go-ahead shots in final 5 sec. of 4Q or OT in playoffs. He's made 6. Michael Jordan was 5-of-11 in his career.

 
For those who may doubt James’ clutch ability in this era, look no further than this statistic.

LeBron James makes his 3rd career game-winning postseason buzzer beater – most by any player over last 15 years


 

Let’s take a look back at all three of James’ postseason buzzer beaters – two with Cleveland and one as a member of the Miami Heat.

No. 1: 2009 Eastern Conference Finals Game 2 – Cavs vs. Orlando Magic

No. 2: 2013 Eastern Conference Finals Game 1 — Miami Heat vs. Indiana Pacers

No. 3: 2015 Eastern Conference Semifinals Game 4 — Cavs vs. Bulls

 

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DWarner4    724

Getty Images

Twenty-six missed game-winning shots, seven years in the NBA until he won a title, career 32 percent three-point shooter, and the best ‘Robin’ side-kick ever. Ladies and gentleman, I’m here to tell you Michael Jordan was overrated.

Now don’t get all bent out of shape, take a quick 20-second time-out. Michael Jordan is one of the greatest players of all time. I’m not here to debate that and go on some crazy tangent comparing him to Gilbert Arenas or someone of that caliber.

I’m here to state the facts and point out that Jordan isn’t quite the untouchable god-like figure that everyone portrays him to be. Jordan is the benefactor of perfect circumstances, ideal timing, and taking advantage of the open-door opportunity named Nike.

Before you come hunting me down at my house, let’s take a deeper look into exactly why MJ isn’t everything he is made out to be.

First of all, let’s look at Jordan’s skill set. Now whenever anyone thinks of Jordan, they think of: game winners, never having an off night, basically an unstoppable force. Revision is history; we always seem to remember the ‘good ole days’ in a brighter light than the present.

As the renowned greatest player of all time and by default the best shooting guard to play the game, it’s ironic that he really didn’t shoot a high percentage from three. Jordan’s first four years in the league, he never shot higher than 18 percent from beyond the arc. I’ll give him credit, as his career progressed his three-point percentage did as well.

I’m not here to question Jordan’s work ethic and commitment to improving his craft; that we can all agree on is obvious. However, it is interesting to note that as his three-point percentage rose, his overall field goal percentage declined. His final seven seasons, he didn’t crack 50 percent from the field. That’s just the regular season, though.

The overall consensus has always been once playoff time comes around, Jordan took his game to the next level. I know it can’t all be measured by shooting percentages, but it is worth noting that both MJ’s field goal and free-throw percentage are lower in the playoffs than the regular season.

Jordan does deserve some credit, though, of course. He owns the highest PER rating in the history of the NBA at 27.91 and is Top 5 all time in win-share percentages, which rates a player’s overall impact on his team’s wins. So even in the analytical age that we are living in, Jordan would still be pretty effective.

The corner three though, not so much. Stick to the tongue-hanging-out dunks and plethora of free throws.

Ok, I agree, MJ’s shooting woes is not a revelation to anyone. But the fact that Jordan didn’t always show up in big games should be a point that is not overlooked. To even question Jordan as the greatest ever can be such a touchy subject to some that it’s almost on par with blaspheming a person’s religion. That’s too far overboard. But, be it as it may, that’s the truth.

Let’s check out some of Jordan’s “big moment” off nights to prove my point.

1998 Finals Game 5 vs. Utah: 9/26 FG’s, 4 rebounds, 4 assists. Chicago loses the game, but no blame is placed on MJ.

Or how about the 1996 Finals vs. Seattle Game 4: 6-19 FG’s with 3 rebounds, 2 assists, and four turnovers. That’s not exactly ‘other-worldly.’

I don’t want to get into a LeBron James debate with this article because LeBron still has a ways to go to catch Jordan of course, but why does the public remember LeBron’s 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists playoff game against the Celtics in 2010 as a horrible game and that he gave up?

If I’m a coach and my star player is going for a monster triple-double like that on the road in a hostile environment, then I want my player giving up all the time. So why do Jordan’s bad games get overlooked and even LeBron’s good games get negatively dissected? Well, I’ll tell you why.

Getty Images

Jordan is a product of the perfect timing and filling a void that was much needed by the NBA and a little company known as Nike. When Jordan came into the league in 1984, the NBA had finally hit popularity throughout the United States thanks to the Magic vs. Birdrivalry. The NBA was looking to capitalize on this upward swing of popularity and knew with finding the one, they could do just that.

As great as Magic and Bird were, you can count the number of highlight dunks on one hand that you remember seeing both of them combined produce. Dr. J was on his way out, the NBA needed a new electrifying superstar.

Couple this with the fact that Nike was a quickly rising factor in the shoe and brand game, and Phil Knight wanted to make a big splash in the NBA market. It might seem odd to think now that Nike wasn’t always the NBA power, when Jordan came into the league that crown belonged to Converse and Adidas. And all MJ wanted to wear when he got into the league was adidas.

However, it just so happened to be an inopportune time for adidas going through management transition at the time and Converse was content with Bird, Magic, and Dr. J. on their plate. Talk about the ultimate swing and miss by two major brands. Jordan was extremely disappointed by the outcome.

Luckily for Nike, Jordan’s agent was David Falk, a good friend of Nike founder Phil Knight. And Knight, he was a pretty innovative guy himself. In March of 1985 The Air Jordan Is, hit stores at an unheard of steep price of $65 a pair. By May, Nike had sold $70 million worth. The rest is history, the greatest marketing campaign for any athlete ever had been born. Nike had found their poster boy.

Nike continued to put millions behind the Air Jordan campaign and with a coming out party at the 1984 Olympics for MJ, he had now become a global icon. Nike continues to feed off the Air Jordan brand. And why not, it’s valued at over $2 billion net worth alone. And that is why Jordan will forever be untouchable and marketed as the greatest ever no matter what anyone else does.

Getty Images

Michael Jordan was also the benefactor of ideal circumstances in Chicago. Everyone talks about how Portland made a huge mistake not drafting MJ with the second overall pick in the 1984 draft. But why would they?

The Blazers currently had a budding star at the same position named Clyde Drexler. Jordan landed in the perfect situation in Chicago where they desperately needed a scorer and a savior. He struggled though the first 4-5 years of his NBA career without any help and three coaching changes. Until everything came gift wrapped in ’88 and ’89 with the additions of Scottie Pippen and relatively unknown coach named Phil Jackson.

Let’s look at the facts; Jordan had one of the best side-kicks in NBA history in Pippen, who is a Top 50 all-time player and often referred to as one of the best defenders to ever play the game. He had arguably the best coach of all time in Phil Jackson who was the perfect fit as a Zen Master with his ability to coach each player to their full potential and whose laid-back personality was the perfect fit to Jordan’s fiery demeanor.

Oh yeah, and the Bulls added one of the greatest shooters in NBA history in 1993, Steve Kerr. But why stop there? In 1995, they added Dennis Rodman, who is referred to by most as the best rebounder in NBA history.

So let’s step back and look at it; Jordan now had the best side-kick, the best coach, the best shooter, and the best rebounder arguably ever to play the game. Not bad. Someone needs to give the often perceived villain Jerry Krause some more credit here for compiling the greatest team in NBA history.

Getty Images

If I haven’t convinced you yet that Jordan isn’t an untouchable mythical figure when it comes to being the greatest ever, let’s take a deeper look at some interesting numbers that stick out to prove my point.

Players are often valued on wins by replacement. This means if someone were to take their place, how well would the team function with another player filling their void. Well, let’s take a look at MJ’s scenario. So Jordan left the game in 1993 after his third title expressing a desire to play baseball.

The Bulls record in that 1992-93 season: 57-25. The Bulls record in the 1993-94 season: 55-27. Two more wins with Jordan compared to without him.

Just for fun, let’s look at the wins by replacement for the Cavs when LeBron left. 2009-10 with LeBron: 61-21. Their record in 2010-11 without LeBron: 19-63. Do the math, that’s the difference of 42 wins.

Sure, the Bulls were a lot worse after Jordan retired for the second time in 1999. But it also was a mass exodus of Pippen, Jackson, Kerr, and Rodman. I don’t think the Cavs were affected much by the loss of Jamario Moon after the 2009-10 season.

Getty Images

Once again, in no way, shape, or form, am I saying that MJ wasn’t a great player. He’s on everyone’s Mount Rushmore. But the notion that he is the greatest ever and will always be no matter what is one that lacks logical substance. Jordan has been created by Nike and the NBA as an untouchable Greek god and even questioning his supreme omniscience is certified blasphemy.

ESPN journalist Wright Thompson had a great piece last year about MJ’s inability to give up the game and enjoy his accomplishments. I thought it was very interesting to read that Jordan nitpicks and calls out the skill set of threats to his throne – “LeBron can’t go left.” And going even further to make the statement that he could beat him in one-on-one. It’s not that he couldn’t, but comments like that reek of insecurity.

So whether you are an MJ religion-worshiper or not, I just ask you to keep an open mind to the idea that hey, MJ had flaws, he’s not a mythical figure that can never be touched.

As great as Jordan is, there’s no denying the fact that his airness is the benefactor of perfect circumstances, ideal timing, and taking advantage of the opportunity presented by Nike. Oh and by the way, to set the record straight, he pushed off on Byron Russell.

David Nurse is a professional shooting coach. You can learn more about him at PerfectShotsShooting.com, the best shooting and skills basketball website in the world. You can also follow him on Twitter @davidnurse05.

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DWarner4    724

Again, this article was before LeBron had two of the best playoff runs in history versus the #1 and #2 teams of All-Time....

 

MAY 11, 2015 AT 4:13 PM

LeBron May Be The Most Clutch Playoff Shooter Of His Generation

dsc_7068.jpg?quality=90&strip=info&w=575

LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers hits the game winning shot with 0.7 seconds left against the Chicago Bulls at the United Center during Game 4 of the Eastern Conference semifinals on Sunday.

 

 

JESSE D. GARRABRANT / NBAE / GETTY IMAGES

On Sunday afternoon, LeBron James offered another reminder of how silly it was to ever doubt his performance in the clutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz-3ItHYeiQ

After the game, ESPN’s Brian Windhorst tweeted that James has now made more go-ahead shots at the end of playoff games than Michael Jordan. (It’s not the only area in which James is Jordan’s statistical peer in the postseason.)

Windhorst’s definition for what constitutes a game-winning shot is as good as any — it covers all potential go-ahead field-goal attempts with five or fewer seconds remaining in the fourth quarter (or overtime) of playoff games. At Basketball-Reference.com, I was able to find 10 such attempts for James: five makes and five misses.1 How does that stack up to other playoff performers over the years?

Unfortunately, Jordan’s playoff career predates BBR’s shot-by-shot database by three seasons, but the site does have a record of every such shot attempted since the 2001 playoffs. And in those go-ahead situations (after accounting for the leverage of the game in which each shot occurred), nobody has a better record relative to expectations2 than James — particularly not his longtime nemesis Kobe Bryant, who sits at the opposite end of the list.

paine-lebron-0511

Relative to the league-wide average, James generated 4.8 more total points than expected on his go-ahead shots, which translates to about one entire playoff win beyond what an average shooter would have contributed from the same field-goal distances. And those numbers become magnified when you consider that James’s average go-ahead shot came in a playoff game with championship implications 34 percent greater than the typical postseason contest. After we weight by the leverage of his specific game-winning shot attempts, James generated the equivalent3 of 8.5 more points than expected, or roughly two playoff wins above average, with his clutch end-of-game shooting alone.

(By contrast, Bryant generated 3.2 fewer points than expected and did it in games that were about 64 percent more important than the average playoff game, compounding the damage of his 1-for-10 performance.)

So there’s no doubting James’s history of knocking down big playoff shots. But what’s also interesting about the list above is that the trailing section contains slightly better players, on balance; the bottom 10 players have tallied 1,090 wins above replacement (WAR), versus 987 WAR for the top 10.

Granted, there’s essentially no relationship between career WAR and leverage-weighted net expected points for the entire sample of players … but maybe that’s the point. Role players can be called upon to hit huge shots with championship implications just as readily as stars. While James (and Dirk Nowitzki, and Chris Paul, to name a few) are all-time greats, the fact that the likes of Rashard Lewis and Metta World Peace also rank so highly — and Bryant fares so poorly — might speak as much as anything else to the unpredictability of who steps up and changes the course of NBA history with a clutch shot or two.

One thing’s for sure, though: James has shown that he’s better at knocking down such consequential buckets than any other player of his generation.

Neil Paine is a senior sportswriter for FiveThirtyEight.

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MoodMuzik    352
On 6/10/2017 at 9:09 PM, DWarner4 said:

Did they not have a 3point line in 2004 or since 1979? The Bulls of the 90's and teams before woulda shot 10 per game or less while watching the Warriors shoot 35 a night, while scratching their heads. the use of the 3 point line isn't a rule. It's a tendency.

 

This is the most telling thing between any other era and now. "Killer mentality because of 6-0" Bill Russell has 11 rings in 13 seasons but the '17 Warriors would have COOKED them.

"Bulls would've beat them up!" Then Curry would've knocked down 90% at the free throw line, and KD35 would've blasted them with another three... while Jordan took another 20 foot 2 pointer.

Jordan drops 63 at the Garden in a loss, in a sweep nonetheless. But that's part of the GOATness of him.

Meanwhile, Lebron is the first player in NBA history to average a damn Triple Double in the NBA FInals (a damn 30+ point, triple double I might add) and actually wins a game against the previous 73-9 Warriors that added MVP/4x scoring champion Kevin Durant... and he's "3-5 lolz"... it's NOT part of the GOATness... that's the mythology of it.

 

And let's not act like 3 of those losses aren't directly from injury. Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen. And with Pippen... still couldn't stop getting bounced in the playoffs until Pippen became an All-Star. What happened when MJ got an All-Star in Pippen? He still didn't win the championship. In fact, he lost Game 7 of the ECF the Pistons. The chance to go to his FIRST NBA Finals... Jordan lost.... by almost 20 points lol. Why? Pippen had migraines. So... if Pippen had migraines in the Finals... or you know, got his shoulder dislocated... or his knee broken... 6-0 is 3-3 lol.

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MoodMuzik    352
23 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Maybe Pippen is the actual GOAT. :P

 

Lol he was pretty stellar in his own right. But all it takes is headaches to take down one of the best.

And don't me started on the Flu Game. NO ONE is so crippled by the flu that they can't move on the bench and need to be carried off the court, but can all of the sudden run around and shoot and jump and scream for 40 minutes lol. Oh my goodness he sold that one hard. Not saying that he didn't have the flu, but let's not act like he nearly died. What. A. Performance.

There's so many variables when it comes to these two. The only thing that separates them is rings.

6-0 is perfect. But there's a guy with 11 rings out there. Mayweather is about to be 50-0, but he's not going to be the GOAT Boxer. The guy who lost the "Fight of the Century" and a total of 5 losses in general, is. Some would say Joe Montana is the GOAT QB, then there's a guy who has more rings and 3 more appearances in the Superbowl. Let's not act like 4-0 is better than 5-7. "0 picks in the SB!" isn't that a stat? Because LBJ > MJ in nearly every single stat category but that doesn't count in that scenario does it?

I think the awards in general are pretty funny to look at myself. Like MJ has 10 scoring titles, but has put up over 2000 more shots than LeBron. So what actual good, is 10 scoring titles when the guy with ONE scoring title is going to absolutely obliterate your career point total in less shots?

DPOY award... true... 1 > 0. Mj could handcheck though lol. LeBron got runner-up DPOY back to back years and he couldn't... handcheck. Same Blocks average... and not even a full steal per game behind MJ when he plays in a league that can't handcheck. And what good is a DPOY award... when the other guy has the SAME Defensive Rating (WITH the 3pt era spike... and in an era where points are scored in WAY more volume I might add) and a BETTER Defensive Rating in the playoffs... and has a higher Box Defensive Plus/Minus (1.9 - 1.1) and a WAYYYY higher 3.5 - 1.8 in the playoffs on the defensive end, again even with the scoring output of teams in the era being much higher than previous era's, which is REALLY telling.

I just think it's funny how everything in Jordan's era is a supposed slight AGAINST LeBron... when it actually ends up helping the LeBron argument.

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DWarner4    724
13 hours ago, Majestic said:

Maybe Pippen is the actual GOAT. :P

 

Pippen was the winner.

 

Phil understood that team play trumped one on one forays by great athletes, and had little respect for a gunner type of player because he played for and learned from the ultimate team coach in Red Holzman. He figured out a way to incorporate the scorer in a team concept by making the scorer a role player in the team concept essentially. He's not depended to make the winning type plays, just the guy they rely on for the bulk of the scoring load. He used Kobe similarly. Ideally, Kyrie could move into this role and they're grooming him for it now.

 

But prolific scorers aren't usually winners. Phil knew that. So it made Pippens role and presence vital. As evidenced by their record when he was absent from the picture.

 

This is an interesting look at the most prolific scorers of All-Time. There have only been 28 men in NBA history to breach the 30.0 point threshold for a season. Of the 28, 25 lost. 3 won rings during their high scoring runs. Jordan in 92, 93 and 96, then you have to go back 40 years to the early 70's to find Rick Barry in '75 and Kareem in '71 as the only other prolific scorers to be considered winners at the same time.

  Criteria Totals Per Game Shooting
Rk Player
Season Age Tm Lg PTS WS G GS MP FG FGA 2P 2PA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF FG% 2P% 3P% eFG% FT% TS%
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1972-73 25 MIL NBA 30.2 21.9 76   42.8 12.9 23.3 12.9 23.3     4.3 6.1     16.1 5.0       2.7 .554 .554   .554 .713 .580
2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970-71 23 MIL NBA 31.7 22.3 82   40.1 13.0 22.5 13.0 22.5     5.7 8.3     16.0 3.3       3.2 .577 .577   .577 .690 .606
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1971-72 24 MIL NBA 34.8 25.4 81   44.2 14.3 24.9 14.3 24.9     6.2 9.0     16.6 4.6       2.9 .574 .574   .574 .689 .603
4 Tiny Archibald 1972-73 24 KCO NBA 34.0 14.2 80   46.0 12.9 26.3 12.9 26.3     8.3 9.8     2.8 11.4       2.6 .488 .488   .488 .847 .555
5 Rick Barry 1974-75 30 GSW NBA 30.6 12.7 80   40.4 12.9 27.7 12.9 27.7     4.9 5.5 1.2 4.6 5.7 6.2 2.9 0.4   2.8 .464 .464   .464 .904 .509
6 Rick Barry 1966-67 22 SFW NBA 35.6 14.4 78   40.7 13.0 28.7 13.0 28.7     9.7 10.9     9.2 3.6       3.3 .451 .451   .451 .884 .531
7 Elgin Baylor 1961-62 27 LAL NBA 38.3 7.9 48   44.4 14.2 33.1 14.2 33.1     9.9 13.1     18.6 4.6       3.2 .428 .428   .428 .754 .492
8 Elgin Baylor 1962-63 28 LAL NBA 34.0 14.4 80   42.1 12.9 28.4 12.9 28.4     8.3 9.9     14.3 4.8       2.8 .453 .453   .453 .837 .519
9 Elgin Baylor 1960-61 26 LAL NBA 34.8 14.8 73   42.9 12.8 29.7 12.8 29.7     9.3 11.8     19.8 5.1       3.8 .430 .430   .430 .783 .498
10 Walt Bellamy 1961-62 22 CHP NBA 31.6 16.3 79   42.3 12.3 23.7 12.3 23.7     6.9 10.8     19.0 2.7       3.6 .519 .519   .519 .644 .554
11 Kobe Bryant 2006-07 28 LAL NBA 31.6 13.0 77 77 40.8 10.6 22.8 8.8 17.6 1.8 5.2 8.7 10.0 1.0 4.7 5.7 5.4 1.4 0.5 3.3 2.7 .463 .497 .344 .502 .868 .580
12 Kobe Bryant 2002-03 24 LAL NBA 30.0 14.9 82 82 41.5 10.6 23.5 9.1 19.5 1.5 4.0 7.3 8.7 1.3 5.6 6.9 5.9 2.2 0.8 3.5 2.7 .451 .465 .383 .483 .843 .550
13 Kobe Bryant 2005-06 27 LAL NBA 35.4 15.3 80 80 41.0 12.2 27.2 10.0 20.7 2.3 6.5 8.7 10.2 0.9 4.4 5.3 4.5 1.8 0.4 3.1 2.9 .450 .482 .347 .491 .850 .559
14 Wilt Chamberlain 1964-65 28 TOT NBA 34.7 15.1 73   45.2 14.6 28.5 14.6 28.5     5.6 12.1     22.9 3.4       2.0 .510 .510   .510 .464 .513
15 Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60 23 PHW NBA 37.6 17.0 72   46.4 14.8 32.1 14.8 32.1     8.0 13.8     27.0 2.3       2.1 .461 .461   .461 .582 .493
16 Wilt Chamberlain 1960-61 24 PHW NBA 38.4 18.8 79   47.8 15.8 31.1 15.8 31.1     6.7 13.3     27.2 1.9       1.6 .509 .509   .509 .504 .519
17 Wilt Chamberlain 1962-63 26 SFW NBA 44.8 20.9 80   47.6 18.3 34.6 18.3 34.6     8.3 13.9     24.3 3.4       1.7 .528 .528   .528 .593 .550
18 Wilt Chamberlain 1965-66 29 PHI NBA 33.5 21.4 79   47.3 13.6 25.2 13.6 25.2     6.3 12.4     24.6 5.2       2.2 .540 .540   .540 .513 .547
19 Wilt Chamberlain 1961-62 25 PHW NBA 50.4 23.1 80   48.5 20.0 39.5 20.0 39.5     10.4 17.0     25.7 2.4       1.5 .506 .506   .506 .613 .536
20 Wilt Chamberlain 1963-64 27 SFW NBA 36.9 25.0 80   46.1 15.1 28.7 15.1 28.7     6.8 12.7     22.3 5.0       2.3 .524 .524   .524 .531 .537
21 Stephen Curry 2015-16 27 GSW NBA 30.1 17.9 79 79 34.2 10.2 20.2 5.1 9.0 5.1 11.2 4.6 5.1 0.9 4.6 5.4 6.7 2.1 0.2 3.3 2.0 .504 .566 .454 .630 .908 .669
22 Adrian Dantley 1982-83 26 UTA NBA 30.7 4.3 22 22 40.3 10.6 18.3 10.6 18.3 0.0 0.0 9.5 11.3 2.6 3.7 6.4 4.8 0.9 0.0 3.7 2.8 .580 .580   .580 .847 .661
23 Adrian Dantley 1981-82 25 UTA NBA 30.3 12.6 81 81 39.8 11.2 19.6 11.1 19.5 0.0 0.0 8.0 10.1 2.9 3.5 6.3 4.0 1.2 0.2 3.7 3.1 .570 .570 .333 .570 .792 .631
24 Adrian Dantley 1980-81 24 UTA NBA 30.7 13.6 80   42.7 11.4 20.3 11.3 20.3 0.0 0.1 7.9 9.8 2.4 4.0 6.4 4.0 1.4 0.2 3.5 3.1 .559 .560 .286 .559 .806 .622
25 Adrian Dantley 1983-84 27 UTA NBA 30.6 14.6 79 79 37.8 10.2 18.2 10.1 18.2 0.0 0.1 10.3 12.0 2.3 3.4 5.7 3.9 0.8 0.1 3.3 2.5 .558 .559 .250 .558 .859 .652
26 Kevin Durant 2009-10 21 OKC NBA 30.1 16.1 82 82 39.5 9.7 20.3 8.1 16.1 1.6 4.3 9.2 10.2 1.3 6.3 7.6 2.8 1.4 1.0 3.3 2.1 .476 .506 .365 .514 .900 .607
27 Kevin Durant 2013-14 25 OKC NBA 32.0 19.2 81 81 38.5 10.5 20.8 8.1 14.8 2.4 6.1 8.7 9.9 0.7 6.7 7.4 5.5 1.3 0.7 3.5 2.1 .503 .549 .391 .560 .873 .635
28 World B. Free 1979-80 26 SDC NBA 30.2 8.0 68   38.0 10.8 22.9 10.7 22.5 0.1 0.4 8.4 11.2 1.9 1.6 3.5 4.2 1.2 0.5 3.4 2.9 .474 .476 .360 .477 .753 .544
29 George Gervin 1979-80 27 SAS NBA 33.1 10.6 78   37.6 13.1 24.9 12.7 23.6 0.4 1.3 6.5 7.6 2.0 3.2 5.2 2.6 1.4 1.0 3.3 2.7 .528 .540 .314 .536 .852 .587
30 George Gervin 1981-82 29 SAS NBA 32.3 10.7 79 79 35.7 12.6 25.2 12.4 24.7 0.1 0.5 7.0 8.1 1.7 3.2 5.0 2.4 1.0 0.6 2.7 2.7 .500 .504 .278 .502 .864 .562
31 Allen Iverson 2001-02 26 PHI NBA 31.4 6.9 60 59 43.7 11.1 27.8 9.8 23.4 1.3 4.5 7.9 9.8 0.7 3.8 4.5 5.5 2.8 0.2 4.0 1.7 .398 .419 .291 .422 .812 .489
32 Allen Iverson 2004-05 29 PHI NBA 30.7 9.0 75 75 42.3 10.3 24.2 8.9 19.7 1.4 4.5 8.7 10.5 0.7 3.3 4.0 7.9 2.4 0.1 4.6 1.9 .424 .451 .308 .453 .835 .532
33 Allen Iverson 2005-06 30 PHI NBA 33.0 10.6 72 72 43.1 11.3 25.3 10.3 22.2 1.0 3.1 9.4 11.5 0.6 2.6 3.2 7.4 1.9 0.1 3.4 1.7 .447 .465 .323 .467 .814 .543
34 Allen Iverson 2000-01 25 PHI NBA 31.1 11.8 71 71 42.0 10.7 25.5 9.4 21.2 1.4 4.3 8.2 10.1 0.7 3.1 3.8 4.6 2.5 0.3 3.3 2.1 .420 .441 .320 .447 .814 .518
35 LeBron James 2007-08 23 CLE NBA 30.0 15.2 75 74 40.4 10.6 21.9 9.1 17.1 1.5 4.8 7.3 10.3 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 3.4 2.2 .484 .531 .315 .518 .712 .568
36 LeBron James 2005-06 21 CLE NBA 31.4 16.3 79 79 42.5 11.1 23.1 9.5 18.3 1.6 4.8 7.6 10.3 0.9 6.1 7.0 6.6 1.6 0.8 3.3 2.3 .480 .518 .335 .515 .738 .568
37 Michael Jordan 1986-87 23 CHI NBA 37.1 16.9 82 82 40.0 13.4 27.8 13.2 27.0 0.1 0.8 10.2 11.9 2.0 3.2 5.2 4.6 2.9 1.5 3.3 2.9 .482 .491 .182 .484 .857 .562
38 Michael Jordan 1992-93 29 CHI NBA 32.6 17.2 78 78 39.3 12.7 25.7 11.7 22.7 1.0 2.9 6.1 7.3 1.7 5.0 6.7 5.5 2.8 0.8 2.7 2.4 .495 .514 .352 .515 .837 .564
39 Michael Jordan 1991-92 28 CHI NBA 30.1 17.7 80 80 38.8 11.8 22.7 11.5 21.5 0.3 1.3 6.1 7.4 1.1 5.3 6.4 6.1 2.3 0.9 2.5 2.5 .519 .533 .270 .526 .832 .579
40 Michael Jordan 1989-90 26 CHI NBA 33.6 19.0 82 82 39.0 12.6 24.0 11.5 21.0 1.1 3.0 7.2 8.5 1.7 5.1 6.9 6.3 2.8 0.7 3.0 2.9 .526 .548 .376 .550 .848 .606
41 Michael Jordan 1988-89 25 CHI NBA 32.5 19.8 81 81 40.2 11.9 22.2 11.6 21.0 0.3 1.2 8.3 9.8 1.8 6.2 8.0 8.0 2.9 0.8 3.6 3.0 .538 .553 .276 .546 .850 .614
42 Michael Jordan 1990-91 27 CHI NBA 31.5 20.3 82 82 37.0 12.1 22.4 11.7 21.3 0.4 1.1 7.0 8.2 1.4 4.6 6.0 5.5 2.7 1.0 2.5 2.8 .539 .551 .312 .547 .851 .605
43 Michael Jordan 1995-96 32 CHI NBA 30.4 20.4 82 82 37.7 11.2 22.6 9.8 19.4 1.4 3.2 6.7 8.0 1.8 4.8 6.6 4.3 2.2 0.5 2.4 2.4 .495 .506 .427 .525 .834 .582
44 Michael Jordan 1987-88 24 CHI NBA 35.0 21.2 82 82 40.4 13.0 24.4 13.0 23.7 0.1 0.6 8.8 10.5 1.7 3.8 5.5 5.9 3.2 1.6 3.1 3.3 .535 .546 .132 .537 .841 .603
45 Bernard King 1984-85 28 NYK NBA 32.9 7.1 55 55 37.5 12.6 23.7 12.5 23.5 0.0 0.2 7.7 10.0 2.1 3.7 5.8 3.7 1.3 0.3 3.7 3.5 .530 .534 .100 .531 .772 .585
46 Karl Malone 1989-90 26 UTA NBA 31.0 15.9 82 82 38.1 11.1 19.8 11.0 19.3 0.2 0.5 8.5 11.1 2.8 8.3 11.1 2.8 1.5 0.6 3.7 3.2 .562 .567 .372 .567 .762 .626
47 Moses Malone 1981-82 26 HOU NBA 31.1 15.4 81 81 42.0 11.7 22.5 11.7 22.4 0.0 0.1 7.8 10.2 6.9 7.8 14.7 1.8 0.9 1.5 3.6 2.6 .519 .520 .000 .519 .762 .576
48 Pete Maravich 1976-77 29 NOJ NBA 31.1 6.4 73   41.7 12.1 28.0 12.1 28.0     6.9 8.2 1.2 3.9 5.1 5.4 1.2 0.3   2.6 .433 .433   .433 .835 .492
49 Bob McAdoo 1975-76 24 BUF NBA 31.1 12.3 78   42.7 12.0 24.6 12.0 24.6     7.2 9.4 3.1 9.3 12.4 4.0 1.2 2.1   3.8 .487 .487   .487 .762 .542
50 Bob McAdoo 1973-74 22 BUF NBA 30.6 15.3 74   43.0 12.2 22.3 12.2 22.3     6.2 7.8 3.8 11.3 15.1 2.3 1.2 3.3   3.4 .547 .547   .547 .793 .594
51 Bob McAdoo 1974-75 23 BUF NBA 34.5 17.8 82   43.2 13.4 26.1 13.4 26.1     7.8 9.7 3.7 10.3 14.1 2.2 1.1 2.1   3.4 .512 .512   .512 .805 .569
52 Tracy McGrady 2002-03 23 ORL NBA 32.1 16.1 75 74 39.4 11.1 24.2 8.7 18.2 2.3 6.0 7.7 9.7 1.6 4.9 6.5 5.5 1.7 0.8 2.6 2.1 .457 .481 .386 .505 .793 .564
53 Bob Pettit 1961-62 29 STL NBA 31.1 11.5 78   42.1 11.1 24.7 11.1 24.7     8.9 11.6     18.7 3.7       3.8 .450 .450   .450 .771 .522
54 Oscar Robertson 1960-61 22 CIN NBA 30.5 13.2 71   42.7 10.6 22.5 10.6 22.5     9.2 11.2     10.1 9.7       3.1 .473 .473   .473 .822 .555
55 Oscar Robertson 1961-62 23 CIN NBA 30.8 15.6 79   44.3 11.0 22.9 11.0 22.9     8.9 11.0     12.5 11.4       3.3 .478 .478   .478 .803 .554
56 Oscar Robertson 1965-66 27 CIN NBA 31.3 16.9 76   46.0 10.8 22.7 10.8 22.7     9.8 11.6     7.7 11.1       3.0 .475 .475   .475 .842 .563
57 Oscar Robertson 1964-65 26 CIN NBA 30.4 17.0 75   45.6 10.8 22.4 10.8 22.4     8.9 10.6     9.0 11.5       2.7 .480 .480   .480 .839 .561
58 Oscar Robertson 1966-67 28 CIN NBA 30.5 17.4 79   43.9 10.6 21.5 10.6 21.5     9.3 10.7     6.2 10.7       2.9 .493 .493   .493 .873 .583
59 Oscar Robertson 1963-64 25 CIN NBA 31.4 20.6 79   45.1 10.6 22.0 10.6 22.0     10.1 11.9     9.9 11.0       3.5 .483 .483   .483 .853 .576
60 Jack Twyman 1959-60 25 CIN NBA 31.2 8.3 75   40.3 11.6 27.5 11.6 27.5     8.0 10.2     8.9 3.5       3.7 .422 .422   .422 .785 .487
61 Dwyane Wade 2008-09 27 MIA NBA 30.2 14.7 79 79 38.6 10.8 22.0 9.7 18.5 1.1 3.5 7.5 9.8 1.1 3.9 5.0 7.5 2.2 1.3 3.4 2.3 .491 .524 .317 .516 .765 .574
62 Jerry West 1961-62 23 LAL NBA 30.8 12.9 75   41.2 10.7 23.9 10.7 23.9     9.5 12.3     7.9 5.4       2.3 .445 .445   .445 .769 .524
63 Jerry West 1969-70 31 LAL NBA 31.2 15.2 74   42.0 11.2 22.6 11.2 22.6     8.7 10.6     4.6 7.5       2.2 .497 .497   .497 .824 .572
64 Jerry West 1964-65 26 LAL NBA 31.0 16.7 74   41.4 11.1 22.4 11.1 22.4     8.8 10.7     6.0 4.9       3.0 .497 .497   .497 .821 .572
65 Jerry West 1965-66 27 LAL NBA 31.3 17.1 79   40.7 10.4 21.9 10.4 21.9     10.6 12.4     7.1 6.1       3.1 .473 .473   .473 .860 .573
66 Russell Westbrook 2016-17 28 OKC NBA 31.6 13.1 81 81 34.6 10.2 24.0 7.7 16.8 2.5 7.2 8.8 10.4 1.7 9.0 10.7 10.4 1.6 0.4 5.4 2.3 .425 .459 .343 .476 .845 .554
67 Dominique Wilkins 1987-88 28 ATL NBA 30.7 9.8 78 76 37.8 11.7 25.1 11.2 23.4 0.5 1.7 6.9 8.4 2.7 3.7 6.4 2.9 1.3 0.6 2.8 2.1 .464 .476 .295 .474 .826 .534
68 Dominique Wilkins 1985-86 26 ATL NBA 30.3 10.8 78 78 39.1 11.4 24.3 11.2 23.4 0.2 0.9 7.4 9.0 3.3 4.6 7.9 2.6 1.8 0.6 3.2 2.2 .468 .479 .186 .472 .818 .536
 
So regardless of how great a singular player is, it takes winning type players around them to make them champions. And everybody knows, championships mean everything. Forget the rest of the story, all the shortsighted masses seem to care about is the rings.
.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30.0&order_by=ws

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Majestic    8,278
1 hour ago, JustiseForHeat20 said:

triple double avgs dont mean anything if u lose in the end.

 

Is that a fact? thinking-hard-smiley-emoticon.gif

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MoodMuzik    352
10 hours ago, JustiseForHeat20 said:

triple double avgs dont mean anything if u lose in the end.

 

 

I guess Russell Westbrooks Triple Double season should be wiped from the history books then, never to be remembered.

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JustiseForHeat20    1,631
1 hour ago, MoodMuzik said:

 

I guess Russell Westbrooks Triple Double season should be wiped from the history books then, never to be remembered.

 

its a regular season award, call me when he wins a title.

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MoodMuzik    352
20 hours ago, JustiseForHeat20 said:

 

its a regular season award, call me when he wins a title.


Dear lord, you're one of those.

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carnageta    773

Lebron plays bad in the 2011 finals and loses -> he cost us the series. It's unacceptable.

 

Lebron makes history in 2017 finals but loses -> doesn't mean anything.

 

To the same people saying it doesn't matter how you perform if you lose, then you should have no reason to be upset at Lebron for his performance against the Mavericks. 

 

Look at Markelle Fultz. Where was his team in the college tournament? How about Lonzo Ball? Those guys went 1 and 2 respectively in the draft but their respective teams were not the top 2 overall in NCAA basketball. There's a reason behind that - win/lose doesn't tell the whole story.

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MoodMuzik    352

Something that happened 6 years ago is the reason he "can't" be better than MJ. 5 years of absolutely record breaking performances later, "but 2011!!", sheesh.

If beating the greatest regular season team of all time with the first ever unanimous MVP/back-to-back MVP defending NBA champions and being the first ever team to win a series after being down 3-1 and being the Finals MVP in that series doesn't make up for 2011... than nothing will, and that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard lol.

 

I guess when LeBron lost as a 21 year old in the NBA Finals against the prime Big 4 Spurs in 2007 his mom should've told him, "You lost in the Finals, you'll never be the GOAT, not that you have 16 years left in this league, no matter what you do, Jordan never lost so you can't be the greatest". lol because that's the message we're sending with the 6-0 nonsense.

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